Interview with Paul Kouwen of Click Marketing Solutions

Jen Sakowski (00:01):

Hey there, grab your coffee and let’s talk a business, how to grow

it, how to sustain it, and how to harness the wonderful worldwide web. To do it

with me, your host, Jennifer Sakowski. Let’s get started.

Paul Cowan (00:24):

Hello.

Jen Sakowski (00:24):

Welcome to the new episode of Raney Day Talks. This is Jennifer,

your host, and today I have a very special guest. I have Mr. Paul Cowan, aka a

party Paul in the house with me. Welcome.

Paul Cowan (00:39):

Hi, Jennifer. Nice to be here.

Jen Sakowski (00:42):

I, I’m so excited to talk to you. I have known you now for two

years or a year

Paul Cowan (00:48):

No more. More. We, we met the first time in, uh, Philadelphia. Oh

Jen Sakowski (00:52):

My goodness. Pregnant.

Paul Cowan (00:56):

Yes.

Jen Sakowski (00:57):

<laugh>. Oh my goodness. In Philly. Well, oh my goodness.

Like, look, look how, okay, I won’t get in there because that just got me

really excited to see how far we’ve come. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But

let’s get started with Paul. Tell me a little bit about yourself and your

business Click Marketing solution, and how you got started.

Paul Cowan (01:15):

Oh, I got started very early, uh, when I was 18 years old. I

started my first business, and, uh, but this business, I started in 2006, so

around 13 years ago. And I started with advertising through Edwards, and I was a

Google Edwards professional in the first part of my business.

Later on, we decided to build websites because we noticed at that a lot of companies we were doing advertising for customers on very lousy websites. And then yeah, the ads didn’t bring in the money the customers wanted, so that’s why we decided to go and build websites and actually transformed from there to doing more technical jobs for our customers. We build out complex systems and, yeah, nowadays we specialize in online course platforms and membership websites.

And we help our customers to take care of them. Uh, yeah, basically taking away for them the technical and marketing overwhelm they have when you run your own platform. Because there are a lot of challenges. And it’s great to have a partner that knows what’s going on and helps you to take care.

Jen Sakowski (02:46):

Mm. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And so how did, how did it

evolve into, like…I know you have a passion just cause I’ve talked to you so

much. But what’s your drive behind the online membership programs and courses

that businesses provide? Like, why, why, why have you niched yourself to that

area?

Paul Cowan (03:05):

I niche myself to that area for various reasons. One is it that

the, the education market is so exciting and it’s so exciting to see that there

are people, who are maybe teachers from profession, or even not teachers from profession,

but they just come from something else. But they have something and they can

teach other people through these online courses. And it opens up to people who

are very specialized in something.

There was a site that helped draw botanical gardens and or no draw botanical flowers. That person made a course of out of it. And in the USA alone, they were not enough people who were interested in learning about this. But worldwide, she has around thousand people who went to her course. It’s so funny that if you make an online course out of something, then so many people can enjoy and can learn. And it doesn’t have to be only business learning. It can be so many things, uh, because people around the world, there, there are so many different people and everybody wants to learn something different.

Jen Sakowski (04:23):

Do you consider yourself a lifelong learner?

Paul Cowan (04:26):

Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I myself am a lifelong learner too. I

love going to online courses and learning new stuff. Yeah, I’ve change things

in my business because of things I’ve learned. And I, I have to admit, I’m more

a business learner than I’m a learner for private things.

Jen Sakowski (04:45):

Sure. Yeah. That leads me into, well, first before for our

listeners, I wanna make a mention about where in the world are you located?

Paul Cowan (04:55):

Oh, yeah, sure. I didn’t tell you that.  I’m based in the Netherlands, so everybody

will say Amsterdam <laugh>. So let’s keep it at that, because it’s not,

but I guess it’s the same as how you say where you live, and then you say you

live in the state of Washington and don’t live in Washington DC because it’s

much bigger than that.

Jen Sakowski (05:19):

Right,

Paul Cowan (05:20):

Right,

Jen Sakowski (05:21):

Right. Well, and but you have clients all over the world though,

correct?

Paul Cowan (05:26):

Yes. Yes. Correct. Yeah. I have started off with clients in Europe,

of course, but more and more I have clients – and I’m also targeting myself

more toward – in the USA because I think there’s a bigger demand in the English

language sphere than there is language sphere. So that’s why. And also, it’s a

personal thing. I started working abroad very early on when I was, I think, 22

or 23. I worked in Asia for eight years, was based in Thailand and, also in an international

community.

So, I came back and I started working again. I always like to do things that were international oriented and with international clients, cities, and I like to use the English language. So yeah, it’s…I dream in English <laugh>.

Jen Sakowski (06:33):

Well, and it’s amazing to me because the things that, the type

industry that we’re in, it’s easy to get on our own little island behind the

computer screen and forget how massive our world is and how many people that we

have the opportunity to impact. So, that was a big learning when I met you,

even in Philly, of sitting in a room with all of these different people from

all the walks of life, from all backgrounds, and we’re all in the same,

essentially the same industry.

And it just, it blew me away of how, not only I think that I’m trying to overcome whatever it is that I’m trying to overcome business, but the guy next to me, he’s like, ‘oh, yeah, like, I have that problem,’ or, ‘Hey, I just solved that problem.’ That, to me, is amazing. And that’s what I love, being able to tap into that community and have the ability to work with other people outside of my neighborhood.

Paul Cowan (07:25):

Wanna mention, yeah, I think it’s very important.

Jen Sakowski (07:26):

Yeah. I wanna mention, so you’ve been working technically for

yourself for 32 years now, since you’ve started to now, and so successful, what

do you think the one thing that attributes to your success is?

Paul Cowan (07:44):

Um, yeah, I guess, yeah. Never stop, never give up and, and, and…don’t

listen to the naysayers. Mm. And, uh, surround you self with positive people.

And, and also communities like where we met. I’m also active in some

communities just to share knowledge, but also, if you are yourself…if you

teach, you also learn from, you teach other people, you also learn again, uh,

how things work. And yeah, I think that’s exciting.

Jen Sakowski (08:23):

That’s good. So, because this podcast, like we, like I said, just

talking over coffee, water for you, Yeah?

Paul Cowan (08:31):

Yeah. It’s, it’s, uh, 104 degrees FN heights. Uh, I’ll be,

Jen Sakowski (08:36):

Oh my goodness.

Paul Cowan (08:37):

So….

Jen Sakowski (08:38):

Coffees doesn’t really sound too appealing to you right now

Paul Cowan (08:41):

But I have to admit in my office this, uh, echo and everything, so

I have no problem. But, uh, when I go outside, it’ll be 104 degrees.

Jen Sakowski (08:49):

Mm mm. I, uh, I could be in a desert, and I’m pretty sure I’d

still be like, “Hey, can I have a cup of coffee?” <laugh> <laugh>.

Um, so we wanna talk about, the big thing that, in our podcast, and what we find in the clients that we talk to and even just local businesses, is that there are certain things that they have to overcome to be successful or to level up or to get to the next level. Or even just to hit record.

Since I’ve known you back in Philly, now I’m gonna reference back to that because we have, I’ve seen how much we’ve evolved, both of us, since then. Has there been any hangups since then? As you’ve developed your niche and your business, is there anything that’s come up that you’re like, ‘man, this is what I had to overcome, but once I overcame that, boom, here we are.’

Paul Cowan (09:43):

Um, yeah, I mean, in this case, I think to overcome that, several

things pop up to my mind. But quite, quite recently and that my moving to the

online course platform and membership businesses, that I did that move without

having customers in that category.

And, also, how we didn’t, when we launched, we didn’t have products in that category, so it took some time, <laugh>. So, I learned that, if you move something in your business, make sure you already have, customers in that category or already have product in the category, and don’t <laugh> have new customers and new product at the same time. Finally, it’s okay, but it just takes much more time than if you have thought it out more properly.

Jen Sakowski (10:49):

So, doing it over again, how would you establish that? Since if

you were launching a new, I guess, arm or new focus in your business and didn’t

have those customers, how would you tell somebody to bridge that gap if they

wanted to start in a specific niche that they haven’t been in before?

Paul Cowan (11:09):

Yeah, the best thing is to try if you have customers that are more….

if they have something related, so you can try out your product, it’s hard. The

step that I made is hard. Yeah, I maybe should have been involved in that

community already, earlier on, have maybe already picked up some customers in

that area before I really moved into it. So, I kind of tried to do it too fast.

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that’s what I’m saying. <laugh>.

Jen Sakowski (11:51):

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s an awesome lesson to learn <laugh>.

Yeah. Cause of taking the time to validate And pitch it to the market. Now, community

is popping up in our conversation. Where did you find that community once you

knew that this is an interest where you were gonna take your business?

Paul Cowan (12:11):

Nowadays in groups and…I always say, unfortunately, I have to say

in Facebook groups. Mm,

Jen Sakowski (12:18):

Really,

Paul Cowan (12:19):

I don’t prefer Facebook so much, but Facebook groups is the way,

and there are so many groups in there where you can join. If you share your

expertise, then, at a certain moment, people will see that, and they will start

connecting with you. Cause they wanna learn from people with expertise, or they

want to hire your service. That’s, that’s the way it works. I think

Jen Sakowski (12:45):

That’s interesting because some people, they don’t think to –  and especially in like this, in other, in

smaller businesses who maybe aren’t online yet – that’s not something that they

would go to. To hop on Facebook and get involved with Facebook groups. Yeah. So,

I think that’s a very important nugget for today is one, I guess not being

afraid to post and to share your knowledge in those Facebook groups. Because,

like you said, that you become an expert, you become a go-to person.

Paul Cowan (13:13):

Yeah. Yeah. And, and the thing is, I do it in the groups. Only I

probably I don’t do it right, but I don’t post publicly. I only post in groups

Jen Sakowski (13:28):

Now do you lead ’em back to landing page or like head of contact,

or are you just blank and he just providing information?

Paul Cowan (13:36):

Providing information. And if people ask, and then I just ask them

to PM me. And when they pm me, I give them a booking link.

Jen Sakowski (13:46):

Okay.

Paul Cowan (13:47):

They can book a 15-minute, quick call with me to see if we are the

right fit. But before we have the call, I will send them an email also with a

small questionnaire with a few basic questions to set out that I will talk to a

serious person.

Jen Sakowski (14:09):

Sure, sure.

<laugh>. So, that was a conversation that’s come up recently

here is about giving information away because there’s still like a…I don’t

wanna call it a trend, but that’s a huge movement. And then I’m definitely for

being a resource, not being afraid to give away information, give away it,

because people will look to you. And even if they try it and they can’t do it, you’re

still going to be the one that they call upon. What are your thoughts on that?

Because that some people are so, like, they don’t wanna give their way or they

don’t wanna give away. To me, one of the trade secrets is blogging. So, they’re

being very general in their content, and we’ve been really trying to push

people to say, no, just open it up. Just be helpful. How helpful can you be?

Paul Cowan (15:03):

Yeah. The thing is the secrets you have are maybe very current

today, but in six months’ time, they are probably not that much value anymore. So,

whatever you share today, in a few months, it’ll be less value. So, don’t worry

too much about that.

And I want to say more about it. You think that everybody then will know your secrets, but it is only a limited group of people who will see it. So, sorry, don’t say about it too much. It’s not that you shared with the whole world. There are still so many people and companies who will not see what you’re talking about. So yeah. Don’t make a big thing out of it.

Jen Sakowski (15:53):

Hmm. That’s good. That’s real good. Now I want to circle back

around on, on you as a business owner And as you’re building your business, do

you have….

And I think it’s always important because I’m about growing and trying to develop myself professionally, but also personally. Do you have any daily habits that you have? Or once you get into work, or how you either start off your day – a because you are a husband, a father, you have a lot to do, you have businesses, you have clients all over the world, keeping crazy hours and a team. So, are there some things that you get started to help you focus on your day and to be successful?

Paul Cowan (16:33):

I am very bad in that. I tried many things and, and for me,

nothing stuck. So,I triedto teach myself many habits that you…like to read

books about self-improvement and things to get better, et cetera. But all the

routines I tried, they never stuck with me.

Also, making to-do lists and whatever. And the only one that helped a little bit was a to-do list I just only make it on the day, in the morning, of what I’m going do today and not big plan list. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Because things change all the time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

I hate to do this. The main structure I have is that in the mornings, I already always have a short  and extended meeting with my team. And that’s five or 10 minutes that we just go over what’s going on, twice a week. Bigger meetings are always maximum of 30 minutes.

And then we go a little bit more in depth about what’s going on and what needs to happen. It’s more that I give my team a certain structure and they follow. And I will use project management tools and, and daily reporting. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I am myself not a good in the, in the structure. It’s <laugh>

Jen Sakowski (18:16):

Well, you said you’re reading a book. What book are you reading

right now?

Paul Cowan (18:20):

The book I just started to read is the…branding book from….

Jen Sakowski (18:30):

Oh, StoryBrand, I think.

Paul Cowan (18:32):

Yeah. That one. That’s book I just started reading, so I can’t

tell you much about it yet.

Jen Sakowski (18:39):

Yeah, I heard. That’s good. That’s on my reading list. I had a

client who actually went through their course, and she said it was really

helpful. I haven’t got touched base with her, but she was super excited about

1. And that’s been on my radar because, I know in our community, that keeps

popping up <laugh>.

Paul Cowan (18:59):

Exactly. That is more…that’s why I also bought it because I

thought keep coming back in several communities. So, I was like, okay, it must

be interesting. So many people are reading it.

Jen Sakowski (19:09):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know that you gave a talk at one of our

meetups before – about building out your team and communicating with your team –

and that was big for me because, at that time I was going through a growing

pain building out a team and having, they were a remote team, so they were all

over the US and at the time.

And so just trying to make sure that I was communicating and doing my part to help them be successful. And you had dropped some really great nuggets about meeting regularly with them and constantly communicating with them. Can you, can you give us a couple little nuggets for us about your team and just how you communicate with them and how you build them up?

Because I think that’s really important, even if someone doesn’t have a team yet, but they’re, they’re in that process of hiring and building out. I learned early on that I’m not a micromanager <laugh> at all. And I had to set myself up with certain tools, like Asana. And we went away from it but just came back to having a weekly check-in with everybody. We communicate, and we can see everybody’s faces, and that we just have that screen time has been huge. Do you have anything that comes to, to mind?

Paul Cowan (20:30):

It’s in our standard routine. So, the daily standup – before we

didn’t do that. But we started it, and it just keeps connection between the

people and just to know that and how we see each other’s face. And you see if

somebody is in happy mood, or less happy mood, or has something else going on.

And it’s also easier that if there is something personal going on in somebody’s

life. They can share it in that call just shortly. That we all know – like a sick

child or whatever – that happens. Life happens. So then, everybody knows, okay,

he might work less today because he’s taking a sick child called doctor. So, we

know. And the other one is the team meeting, but we have a fixed format with our

daily reports that I ask everybody to fill.

(21:39):

So I always ask them, “What did you do yesterday?” Or if it’s Monday,

then last Friday. So, they just write down shortly what did they do. Next, “What

is the planning for today?” They will write down what’s priority for today.

And then we ask, “What is still on your list that’s not planned yet?” So that’s a third item.

The fourth item I ask is, “Is there anything I or one of your colleagues can help you with?” So, if they need help with something, they can put it there. Or if they are behind with something they can shout out to ask for help.

The fifth item we always ask is, “Is there any particular about your working hours of today?”

(22:40):

And if they have a change or something, then we know and we act on

that plus that report they do daily. That helps me also to see what’s going on

because, in the project management tools we use, we know what projects they

were working on and the priority set there. But it’s good to just see in the data

report – what are they doing today? And then sometimes I see, okay, they

prioritize this customer, but in my head, they should prioritize this customer.

So then I can connect with them and say, ‘Hey, let’s do a different

prioritization than you did for now.’ I think it’s just good to connect with

people and, they know that they are part of a team, and they maybe work from

their house and they sit there alone, but they’re not alone.

(23:37):

I think that’s important and, as you said, don’t micromanage them.

Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Give them the task and give them the opportunity.

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Also, teach them. I don’t….a lot of people do things that I never did before, so I cannot teach them that. We tapped into some networks and also some programs where I can share to my staff that they can follow a certain program to learn some new skill. So that’s good.

I don’t expect everybody to know everything. But the great thing with the internet nowadays is that they can learn. And that’s also the way I hire. I don’t really hire for your skillset, but I hire for your attitude. If the person has the right attitude to work – and especially a very good communication skills that…they communicate well. That, if there’s something happening in their life, they communicate with you and they not just disappear and come back after they solve what’s happening in their life. The communication and attitude are the most important skills because if they have a good attitude andthey don’t know something, they will figure it out. They will go online, learn it, or sometimes they’ll ask me and then I can give them a pointer. Okay, I know here you can learn about it. And then they will do, and then they will just teach themselves. Because people with the right attitude, they do that.

Jen Sakowski (25:14):

Yeah. And that’s something that I really appreciate from you, that

I always pick up when I’m having a conversation with you when we talk about

our, our businesses and just, and what you do is, I appreciate the fact that

you look beyond the business and you try to connect with the individual mm-hmm.

<affirmative>

And I see that – even from your team – but also in what you do with the LMSs, you know, the online course platforms, the community building is that you…. It’s almost, even though you guys do such a great work within the technical side of setting everything up and all the bells and whistles, but you see the value of connecting to the individual.

Paul Cowan (25:48):

Yeah. Yeah. I, I think business is all about individuals. That’s

what it is about. It’s about connection with people and that’s also what gets

me out of bed. If it would not be then it would be so boring.

Jen Sakowski (26:04):

Hmm. Yes. And just to touch on your business, click marketing

solution, we’ll drop that link into our show notes, but your focus is get out

of technical and marketing overwhelm web development with a marketing approach,

but it’s online membership and course businesses that want to focus on doing

what they love. So how, how do you take over that stress from them?

Paul Cowan (26:31):

<laugh> We take over the stress by them by offering them what

we call a care plan. And in the care plan, we take over their website and

technically and make sure their website is always updated to the newest

technology. In discussions with them on a regular basis, depending on the care

plan they have, we will give suggestions how to improve things. And if they

like it, then we also will – if there’s technical part of it – we’ll help them

with the implementation of it. So yeah, it’s, it’s like having a trusted

advisor next to you that has experience in your business and knows what’s going

1. And that you can bounce ideas with and then make a decision and implement

it.

Jen Sakowski (27:29):

Hmm. That’s good. And now we’re gonna pick your brain just for the

remaining time today is, and I know like all the people who are listening are

thinking, “Oh, I wanna start a course. Like, I wanna do that.” And I know I

encourage a lot of our clients that having a course, especially an evergreen

course, is a great way to build that recurring revenue to help you over the

hump. So, that way you can hire, you can do other things in the business that

you want to do because you obviously you need money to be able to afford those

things.

Now, with courses, if somebody was like, “You know what, I wanna get started with course.” Talk to me on the technical side. What’s your favorite or your go-to platform that you recommend for people who are getting started?

Paul Cowan (28:14):

When  you’re getting

started, it’s a little bit different. It depends also on what your expectation

of your product. But when we build course platforms, we typically like to use a

platform called LearnDesk that integrates well with WordPress and has a lot of different

possibilities. It’s very big; it has a lot of features and you can also add a

lot of features. And there are a lot of people developing with LearnDesk. So

that’s really great. But if you are starting out, then there is also a platform

called Access Alley that integrates into WordPress and has a lot of features

already within one plugin. But actually, before you start building your course,

the best advice I can give you is validate your course – if you are in a group

or whateve – propose to the people there, “Hey, would you like to learn about

this?”

(29:25):

And also ask them what are their challenges, and what they would

like to learn more about. Try to see if there is really engagement for what you

want to teach about. And even further, would be to make an a course outline and

propose to people and also make what we call a soft lounge and say, “Okay, would

you sign up for this? And would you pay whatever amount you want to ask for it,

for this course?” Because a lot of people, they start building courses without

validating that people really want to have it. mm-hmm. <affirmative>

And they get stuck in all the technical thing and mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the delivery thing, while there is no sales yet. I think that most people who start course go longer, they start with the delivery part and they should start with the sales part.

Jen Sakowski (30:26):

Hmm. And like the actual meat of what they’re, what they’re trying

to, to teach. Now, do you think that, where does a webinar play into it? Do you

think that that is a steppingstone Yeah. To validate?

Paul Cowan (30:38):

Yeah. A webinar is also an awesome idea to validate the course and

to see if there are really people interested in this subject. And if possible, set

up something and do a trial sales to see if people really want to spend money

for it. Because there are cases known that people are surrounded, are people

interested? And everybody, yes, yes, yes. And then they said, okay, it’s cost $199

and then, silly, it was no, no, no, no, no. <laugh> Nobody wanted to buy.

So, if people say yes, with their mouth, do they also say yes with their

wallet? Mm. It’s not always the same.

Jen Sakowski (31:17):

That, that’s so good. I feel like you just drop some major helpful

truth bombs right there on, if anyone’s getting started, because I know even,

not even in my industry, but other friends and colleagues that they’re….that’s

like the buzz right now is, “Oh, like how do I start a course? Or how do I

promote that? Or how do I have a platform to teach on?” And making sure that

you validate it before you even look at the technology side of it. I think it’s

so important.

Paul Cowan (31:45):

Yeah.

Jen Sakowski (31:46):

Good. Well, I think that this has been so productive and so

helpful, and I just can’t thank you enough for you. You were one of the first

ones that I put out a call to say, “Hey, who would join me on my little podcast

and just have a little business chat?” And you jumped right on it. And I, from

the bottom of my heart, thank you for joining and just sharing about your

business, your life and, and really the nuggets about starting the course. That

is super helpful.

Paul Cowan (32:14):

Thank you, Jennifer. It’s always a pleasure to talk with you.

Jen Sakowski (32:17):

Thank you. Thank you. Well, I hope you have a phenomenal day and

make sure to check out our notes. I’ll be posting click marketing solutions.com

if you’d like to connect with Paul and learn more about the technical side of

launching your course or online community. Paul, thank you so much. I hope you

have a great day.

Paul Cowan (32:35):

Thank you, Jennifer. Bye bye.

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